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A Mess of Thoughts

I’m thinking about The Church. I’m trying to not only figure out where I fit, but also figure out what fits me. Here are some very random, incomplete and unorganized thoughts to mull over:

1. Mission/Vision/Values VS. Calling: I’ve never been a big fan of business language in relation to The Church, but at the same time I’ve experienced the benefits first hand of clarity in an organizational setting. Yet, I wonder what the body of Christ on earth would be like if we lived out (read: struggled, experimented, took time, waited, sacrificed, loved, hoped, trusted) both our global and local calling(s) as opposed to setting up a makeshift business plan that, if we are honest with ourselves, is more about tracking progress and measuring effectiveness than anything else.

2. Mix&Match: As a disciple of Christ, is it possible to mix and match the parts of Christendom that we most resonate with? Can we borrow from Christian traditions outside our own and at the same time minimize the emphasis on some of the distinctives we once held to? For example, can one be Pentecostal in experience, yet still embrace the practice of silence and solitude? Or, can one believe in limited atonement, hold to Catholic views of Mary the mother of Jesus and be a post-millenialist?

3. Individualism and Annonymity: Truly a cancer in this era of North American Christendom.

4. Measuring Sticks: Numbers? No thanks. ‘Worship Units’? Please, no. Efficiency? Out of place, so no. Accountability? Hmmm…maybe you’re onto something…

Filed by Joe at December 6th, 2005 under Rants

You have a blog.
That’s fun. I’m glad you finally joined the inevitable.

Individualism and Annontymity has been the one that has been strongest on my mind. I know i hate it, and i know i want it to change, but i don’t think it will work. I don’t know how to help bring change and i don’t think people want what’s better and the opposite. We were talking about the other day about those few churches in the states that are fairly new ‘emergent’ style churches and they are monastaries, actually full out communities of beleivers ACTUALLY living together. Can you imagine a church where most of them live in the same area, or apartment building, and continually share their lives together? I would love to see it. But is that real?

Then i’m trying to understand the evolution of the church, and maybe that’s just not a step that we should be waiting/hoping for. Maybe it looks different. Maybe community today is supposed to be different than that in the early church. Afterall the early church isn’t a diagram of what we are supposed to mimic, it was just the way it was 2000 years ago. So what should it look like now?

Comment by Nathan Colquhoun — December 7, 2005 @ 9:10 am

Hi Joe!

I know we haven’t actually met yet, but I like your thoughts, so here I am.

1. Calling calling calling calling calling. The number of boneheads that are in bible college these days is just absurd. Our bible colleges take in all the kids that arent’ smart enough to get into Universities, and helps them to lead the church. Scary thought. The number of people that are CALLED to ministry is very disproportonately represented in bible colleges. Most of the ones that are called are too busy doing ministry to deal with it. It’s a sad state.

2. Mix and Match. I think it’s so important to do this. Isn’t it better to be categorized as “Followers of Jesus” than as “Pentecostals” “Baptists”, etc? If you meet Jesus in a Labyrinth AND at Hillsongs, power to you! If contemplative reading puts you to sleep, don’t bother.

3. Truly a cancer, but one that is allowed by churches. This seems to relate to number 4 - we go for the numbers, and ignore the souls.

4. maybe “opportunity”?

cheers,
mike

Comment by mike — December 7, 2005 @ 5:48 pm

hi mike-

you had a cool green zip up track jacket on when i saw you in the house on sunday…nice to make your acquaintance.

CALLING: i’m talking about the ‘calling’ of the church, not individuals

MIX AND MATCH: i think you’re onto a trend that we’re going to see rise to the forefront of xtian faith (at least in north america) over the next 10-15 years…the death of denominationalism….you heard it here first!

CANCER: i agree

OPPORTUNITY: what do you mean?

Comment by Administrator — December 9, 2005 @ 11:28 pm

Hey Joe…

I’m fairly sure that’s the first time “cool” and “mike” have been that close. It makes my heart smile.

CALLING - hmm.. never thought of it in a CHURCH context so much - would you say that different churches have different callings? And if so, who “receives” the instruction from God - the senior? the board? the cutting edge youth ministry team? or would you say all churches have the same calling (commission?)

MIX AND MATCH. Sorry bro, but I didn’t hear it here first…In fact, on my old blog, I killed emergence aboout 6 months ago. heh.

CANCER. ’nuff said then. At least SOMETHING got resolved. heh.

OPPORTUNITY. It seems like all the things you listed are different unmeasurables you’re trying to measure - and on a base level, they’re all refering to level of commitment, or “amount of engagement” - One neat thing I learned from my mentor was his view on asking people to help, or for money. I always wondered and asked him how he could be so bold in asking people for things - he responded that it was part of his job as a pastor to give his people an OPPORTUNITY to respond to God. The tricky part is figuring out what sort of opportunity people need - but if you ask good questions, you can quickly figure out the “health” of your congregation.

cheers

Comment by mike — December 10, 2005 @ 8:56 am

Hey Joe
and then Mike

Good to see you blogging brother.
Mike, that was a funny comment you made “MIX AND MATCH. Sorry bro, but I didn’t hear it here first…In fact, on my old blog, I killed emergence aboout 6 months ago. heh.” LOL

You know something I am struggling with. Why do we limit good deeds to that of only the church? Do you think the Red Cross or United Way are organizations that aren’t supported by God or that God didn’t have his hand in its development and continued success?

For me, I see a lot of people arguing about what the church needs to do right and what they are doing wrong and they compare its lacking to the way the world is around them. Its like were taking cues from what the world is spitting out.

Is it wrong to support non-Christian venues? Would it be wrong to say that a churches calling isn’t to make cutting edge youth ministry teams but to get on board and support groups like the big brothers and sisters? If you want to talk about unity, why don’t we unite with non-Christian based associations? Are we too prideful or are we letting such “mixing it up with the sinners” mentality dictate our thoughts?

Mike I will admit that I have some disagreement with you. You call people who go to college boneheads and that there not good enough to go to University. Was it not Jesus who acquired fishermen to be his “best of the best?” I don’t recall him sitting down with the finest rabbis of his day and picking from them. What does school have to do with anything anyway and do you think people in University only have the calling? I thought Jesus called upon everyone? I could be wrong though, I’m only a graduated college student who didn’t pick up a bible until a couple years ago.

Joe, I look forward to you coming home. Will have to get out for an English breakfast when your back.
Cheers.

Comment by Ron Smith — December 13, 2005 @ 11:42 am

Hey Ron.

I agree with you on supporting “non-traditional” ministry situations. I, for one, work as a server in an airport restaurant. In that setting, I’m able to minister to dozens of non-christian and christian people every day. I sit down with tables, I talk about life, I encourage them. I would say that I have more quality ministry interactions there than I ever had at a church (and I’ve worked as a youth guy for years). I know that people who sit in my section leave having a better day than they were having when they came in. I’m sure that the boys and girls clubs, the ymca, etc. all are full of people in similar situations.

The other point - I’m not saying that all people who go to college are boneheads - I’m sorry it came across as that. In MY situations, I went to university first, then to bible college. I was appalled at bible college - most of the classrooms were full of people who had great difficulity doing any sort of writing or thinking at anything higher than a high school level. Even the social interactions were on the level of cliques, bickering, and all that. I’ve never been to a trade college (yet) - and I hope to in the future.

Of course, there are always exceptions to these rules, and some of my great friends (and great thinkers) came from bible colleges, although admittedly, most of them dropped out. heh.

When I talk about calling, I’m not refering to the call of salvation, but rather tha call to full ministry. I think that is a much more specific calling, one that is a prerequisite for being a frontline Christian leader.

mike

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